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- Sep 28, 2012
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Aus aktuellem Anlass, will ich eine Email, die ich einem Beta-Tester (sorry, englisch) geschrieben habe, auszugsweise teilen. Ich glaube, einige haben noch nicht so ganz verstanden, was der Unterschied zwischen RAW und MPT ist und vor allem, dass in Cab-Lab3 auch RAW per default als MPT behandelt wird, so lange Cab-Lab nicht gesagt wird: Arbeite mit den Dateien so, wie sie sind. Ändere nichts! Sei es beim mixen oder beim WAV2SYX konvertieren: NONE beim mixen / KEIN ANKLICKEN VON MINIMAL PHASE und AUTO TRIM beim konvertieren ist angesagt, will man real_phase Mixes in Cab-Lab mit RAW-IRs produzieren (wie sie beispielsweise ML Sound Lab ausschliesslich anbietet und cabIR.eu als R-Mixes im Portfolio hat (im Gegensatz zu den cabIR.eu M-Mixes, die MPT sind)
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I`m really curious about, that you like MPT more than RAW. They should sound nearly identical on their own. They differ from 2 Hz to approx.. 35 Hz and beyond 20kHz. I also saw in your “used IRs & presets” Excel overview, that you use a lot of the ML Sound and ownhammer stuff. At least Mikko`s IR Mixes are always “RAW” mixes, which will produces phase cancelation and because of that, combfiltering effects. That make the sound more “phasey”, but this “phasiness” could bring some “character” to the sound. Also because of phase cancelation (mostly because of NOT time aligned like MPT!), the top-end get`s softer, less harsh … Mikko calls this “Alloy”.
Because I did not seen it in the video and just want be double sure, you know this, here again some Cab-Lab pics, which will show, how Cab-Lab work with MPT vs. RAW:
(MPT means minimal phase transform, in Cab-Lab: minimal phase. RAW means: no time alignment, no internal “phase” killing, in Cab-Lab: None (if the actual IR is RAW!!!!)
SLOT 1&2: Two MPT IRs. SLOT 5&6: The SAME IRs, but the RAW versions:
Pic 1) MPT-IR Mix (CL3 handle them default as MPT (minimal phase):
As you see, Min Phase is ALWAYS the default setting. Means, either if you put RAW files into, Cab-Lab will convert them internally as MPT!!!
Pic 2) MPT-IR Mix (CL3 setting: None = handle them as is)
Because the IRs are MPT, we did not see any differences in the plot when Cab-Lab handle them as minimal phase or None.
Pic 3) RAW-IR Mix (CL3 handle them default as MPT (minimal phase):
Now the RAW-IRs with Cab-Lab default setting: RAW gets handled as MPT again, the plot looks the same as the MPT versions!
Pic 4) RAW-IR Mix (CL3 handle them “as is” = None = RAW files stay RAW files!)
So, here we are: NOW, the RAW MIX makes the difference: We see a phase cancelation spike and in comparison the the MPT Mix, the Curve on the high-end side will fall earlier = smoother high-end
THIS IS THE “REAL PHASE” MIX, as you would get, if you record the actual real MICS in front of the Cab directly. This is what would happen in the recording studio, when recording two (ore more) mics together!!!!! And THIS IS, what Mikko`s (ML SOUNDLAB) MIX-IRs are (ALLOY folder)!!!!
So, if you like Mikko`s stuff (I believe Kevin do also RAW-Mixes, but I can`t lay my hands into fire only for Mikko`s stuff, there I am 100% sure…). Ownhammer includes in the latest packs also MPT versions. But they won`t sound different to the others (RAW), because the real_phase effect is baked in from the mix and after that, he creates the MPT version from the Output files I believe … other story…)
Just want to make sure, that this is clear! Because: If you prefer ML SOUND Mixes (always real-Phase), you did not have any chance to get similar results with my single Mics, if you NOT Mix 1) RAW files and 2) Say Cab-Lab also to handle them as they are = handle them as RAW files (NONE). But default is MPT!!!!!
You see the difference in the TIME Domain!!!!!
RAW IR handled as MPT:
RAW handled as is – as RAW (=None)
Look the Pre-delay time in front of the first spike!!!!!!! That`s the time, the air needs from Speaker membrane to Mic capsule…. Those times are different each mic position and will result in phase cancelations, when mixing different mics (with “real_phase” and time domain) together….
Personal, I did not work in Cab-Lab (at least for the Cab-Packs) (you won`t get .WAV files out of it … hahaha). The final Cab-Packs will include also MIX-IRs from each speaker in MPT and real-phase RAW (Alloy paradigm). Also I want to create MIX-IRs from the whole cabinet, perhaps including a bit “wood” from the rear-edge mic (-re…), which captures the cabinet ”wood/resonances”. Perhaps also some variants with “room” by including some room mics … (rm-1, …)
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I`m really curious about, that you like MPT more than RAW. They should sound nearly identical on their own. They differ from 2 Hz to approx.. 35 Hz and beyond 20kHz. I also saw in your “used IRs & presets” Excel overview, that you use a lot of the ML Sound and ownhammer stuff. At least Mikko`s IR Mixes are always “RAW” mixes, which will produces phase cancelation and because of that, combfiltering effects. That make the sound more “phasey”, but this “phasiness” could bring some “character” to the sound. Also because of phase cancelation (mostly because of NOT time aligned like MPT!), the top-end get`s softer, less harsh … Mikko calls this “Alloy”.
Because I did not seen it in the video and just want be double sure, you know this, here again some Cab-Lab pics, which will show, how Cab-Lab work with MPT vs. RAW:
(MPT means minimal phase transform, in Cab-Lab: minimal phase. RAW means: no time alignment, no internal “phase” killing, in Cab-Lab: None (if the actual IR is RAW!!!!)
SLOT 1&2: Two MPT IRs. SLOT 5&6: The SAME IRs, but the RAW versions:
Pic 1) MPT-IR Mix (CL3 handle them default as MPT (minimal phase):
As you see, Min Phase is ALWAYS the default setting. Means, either if you put RAW files into, Cab-Lab will convert them internally as MPT!!!
Pic 2) MPT-IR Mix (CL3 setting: None = handle them as is)
Because the IRs are MPT, we did not see any differences in the plot when Cab-Lab handle them as minimal phase or None.
Pic 3) RAW-IR Mix (CL3 handle them default as MPT (minimal phase):
Now the RAW-IRs with Cab-Lab default setting: RAW gets handled as MPT again, the plot looks the same as the MPT versions!
Pic 4) RAW-IR Mix (CL3 handle them “as is” = None = RAW files stay RAW files!)
So, here we are: NOW, the RAW MIX makes the difference: We see a phase cancelation spike and in comparison the the MPT Mix, the Curve on the high-end side will fall earlier = smoother high-end
THIS IS THE “REAL PHASE” MIX, as you would get, if you record the actual real MICS in front of the Cab directly. This is what would happen in the recording studio, when recording two (ore more) mics together!!!!! And THIS IS, what Mikko`s (ML SOUNDLAB) MIX-IRs are (ALLOY folder)!!!!
So, if you like Mikko`s stuff (I believe Kevin do also RAW-Mixes, but I can`t lay my hands into fire only for Mikko`s stuff, there I am 100% sure…). Ownhammer includes in the latest packs also MPT versions. But they won`t sound different to the others (RAW), because the real_phase effect is baked in from the mix and after that, he creates the MPT version from the Output files I believe … other story…)
Just want to make sure, that this is clear! Because: If you prefer ML SOUND Mixes (always real-Phase), you did not have any chance to get similar results with my single Mics, if you NOT Mix 1) RAW files and 2) Say Cab-Lab also to handle them as they are = handle them as RAW files (NONE). But default is MPT!!!!!
You see the difference in the TIME Domain!!!!!
RAW IR handled as MPT:
RAW handled as is – as RAW (=None)
Look the Pre-delay time in front of the first spike!!!!!!! That`s the time, the air needs from Speaker membrane to Mic capsule…. Those times are different each mic position and will result in phase cancelations, when mixing different mics (with “real_phase” and time domain) together….
Personal, I did not work in Cab-Lab (at least for the Cab-Packs) (you won`t get .WAV files out of it … hahaha). The final Cab-Packs will include also MIX-IRs from each speaker in MPT and real-phase RAW (Alloy paradigm). Also I want to create MIX-IRs from the whole cabinet, perhaps including a bit “wood” from the rear-edge mic (-re…), which captures the cabinet ”wood/resonances”. Perhaps also some variants with “room” by including some room mics … (rm-1, …)
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